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Hara maesotensis


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#1 mikev

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:48 AM

Hi,

I wonder if anyone here keeps them.

I'm considering getting them and wonder about the proper conditions and numbers.
I do have experience with hillstream loaches (about 30 here in 8 species), but not hillstream cats.

The plan is to put them into a hillstream loach tank, a 29g, 70F-75F, lots of O2 and current. At the moment, the intended tank has stream-compatible Danios and three small Schisturas, additional hillstream loaches soon.

The questions are:

Anything wrong so far?
Strong current -- any danger there for them? (there are quite areas in the tank and BN's do fine in a similar tank)
Numbers -- 4? 6? try to get a pair? they cannot be sexed, am I right? Any dangers of fights if I happen to get two males? (thinking plecos..perhaps wrongly)
Any special needs? -- will they be ok with the hillstream diet (algae, shrimp and bloodworms)?


TIA for any information you may provide.

Below is the image of the fish in question (just in case I got the ID wrong):



#2 medaka

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 02:34 PM

Hi Mikev

Your fish is indeed Hara maesotensis

I keep my group(5) in thier own tank with just gentle water movement. they tend to do better in the cooler temperature ranges 18 to 24 degrees C a neutral pH is fine, They also tend not to do well on prepared food, prefering live, (bloodworms, white & grindal worms), but they will take frozen.(bloodworms)
take mates like Danio choprae and even guppy's are fine,(nothing too boisterious)
However, they need excellent water quality, and they tend not to be tolerant of nitrates.

QUOTE
they cannot be sexed, am I right?


No sexing is easy, the females are more plumper than the males and also their pectoral fins are deeper. these catfish can be squabblesome towards one another especially whilst feeding, if you provide little hiding places they will be fine.
They have also been bred:- biggrin.gif

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I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

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#3 mikev

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 03:22 PM

Thanks a lot, medaka!

The intended tank has Danio choprae and Danio Hikari.
I try to keep the pH around 6.6-6.8 (to have roughtly the same water in all tanks in case of an emergency).
Some hiding spaces will be there (loaches also use them, but I found that for smaller loach species large plants and large stones are actually sufficient)

How large is your single-species tank just in case? (sounds like 10g).

I hope this 29g will be ok...there is not all that much current on most of the ground itself and the only possibly dangerous fish will be H.Confuzona's (generally peaceful hillstream loach, but active during feedings and possibly 3"+).

QUOTE
They have also been bred:-


biggrin.gif

Your older post announcing it is what brought me here (and tilted me toward wanting them too)...congradulations! did you post the story/pix somewhere?

Being very dumb (still waking up): what is on the picture you posted? A M/F pair?

#4 Irene

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:28 PM

Hi, I recently acquired 3 moth cats and am really pleased with them, they seem to enjoy frozen bloodworm, cooked peas with skin off, and algae pellets and occasionally chase some flakes around. I was told by the shop they were E. pussillus, but look just like the hara. I am trying to find out all I can about them.

#5 medaka

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 10:43 PM

QUOTE
How large is your single-species tank just in case? (sounds like 10g).


I have housed my little group in a 5 gallon tank for the last 4 years, BTW they get plenty of water changes.

QUOTE
congradulations! did you post the story/pix somewhere?


The breeding report was published in "Cat Chat" which is the official journal of the Catfish Study group a few years ago. ( hopefully I can have the report on line before this Xmas)

QUOTE
what is on the picture you posted? A M/F pair?


Parent and off-spring actually, from 3 yrs ago biggrin.gif


QUOTE
I was told by the shop they were E. pussillus, but look just like the hara. I am trying to find out all I can about them.


Erethistes pussillus and all Hara's species, belong to the same family:- Erethistidae, the main difference between Erethistes and Hara is that the Serrae on the anterior edge of the pectoral fin spine is diverergent in Erethistes and are outwardly directed in Hara. I have some work that I have been carringing out over the last 3 yrs due for publication ( sept/oct) in the Official journal of the Catfish Study Group,
BTW the fish you show in your welcome thread here
are indeed Erethistes pusillus
My son asked "who was Elton John dad"?
I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

My Hearts belongs To Everton

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#6 mikev

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 04:56 AM

QUOTE(medaka @ Aug 24 2006, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have housed my little group in a 5 gallon tank for the last 4 years, BTW they get plenty of water changes.
...................
The breeding report was published in "Cat Chat" which is the official journal of the Catfish Study group a few years ago. ( hopefully I can have the report on line before this Xmas)
Parent and off-spring actually, from 3 yrs ago biggrin.gif
Erethistes pussillus and all Hara's species, belong to the same family:- Erethistidae, the main difference between Erethistes and Hara is that the Serrae on the anterior edge of the pectoral fin spine is diverergent in Erethistes and are outwardly directed in Hara. I have some work that I have been carringing out over the last 3 yrs due for publication ( sept/oct) in the Official journal of the Catfish Study Group,
BTW the fish you show in your welcome thread here
are indeed Erethistes pusillus


Thanks a lot, I think I understood the fundamentals. I'm still thinking in terms of a mixed hillstream setup but if for some reasons they don't like the company a private 5g or 10g should be doable.

Looking forward to reading your report!

#7 Irene

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 10:12 AM

many thanks, I think your pics and the pnes on Scotcat gallery show more brown/tan color wheras mine have more grey.
I have them in my 10gap QT tank with some guppies and baby BNs, but might move them into large community tank in a while which would give them more space but I would probably see them less.
I would love to breed them but dont even know their sex yet. one is larger then the other two but I cant see much difference in them otherwise so could be all the same sex.
are they hard to breed?

#8 Bagrus dude

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE


This isn't Hara maesotensis (H. maesotensis=H. filamentosa), but an undescribed miniature species from southern Myanmar.

#9 medaka

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 08:04 PM

HI HH

QUOTE
This isn't Hara maesotensis (H. maesotensis=H. filamentosa), but an undescribed miniature species from southern Myanmar.


Confused, Why? is this now A. N. Other. Erethstini.
Although it looks similar to the photo you kindly sent to me of the "undiscribed hara" the other month. In comparing the photo shown and the ones you kindly sent me, to my photo's of Erethistes maesotensis, and indeed live specimens that I have, there is no doubt in my mind that the photo shown is Hara maesotensis (as described by M Kottelat and re diagnosed as a Hara not a Erethistes, by yourself)

Also why? is: -
QUOTE
(H. maesotensis=H. filamentosa)


Is not H filamentosa in the original description said to be from Indawgyi lake, Myanmar(Burma) among other Myanmar locations.
Whereas H maesotensis is said to be from the village of Mae Sot in Thailand.
Talwar & Jhingran (1991) and Raj Tilak (1978) give H filamentosa as a synonym of H hara
Also I thought the original specimen of H filamentosa is no longer available to science, therefore making
a true identification of H filamentosa impossible.

Also this

is Hara cf filamentosa and is found in Thailand??

which is larger than H maesotensis by over twice as much (SL)
My son asked "who was Elton John dad"?
I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

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#10 medaka

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 08:22 PM

Irene wrote
QUOTE
are they hard to breed?


The difficulty is raising the young to an acceptable level (ie:as shown in the photo)

Sorry to be negative sad.gif ; but!

I have a problem saying if any fish is hard to breed or not.. what is easy for me..may be difficult for someone else, no matter what their experience is at breeding fish, and visa versa.
But I have to say that I have only heard of one other guy that can spawn them and he lives in Germany.
[If anyone knows anyone else please tell!]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADD ON ( to whom-ever):- regarding breeding matters.

When I first started to think about breeding fish 30 yrs ago, (guppys and platys not counted)
The chairman of my local club said: -" first breed white cloud mountain minnows--and learn, then breed convict cichlids--and learn, ,then try bronze corys--and learn"
So I did, and learnt!
My son asked "who was Elton John dad"?
I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

My Hearts belongs To Everton

visit AsianCatfish.com

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#11 Bagrus dude

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 10:23 PM

The paper explaining everything has been accepted for publication in Revue Suisse de Zoologie:

Ng, HH & Kottelat, M. A review of the catfish genus Hara, with the description of four new species (Siluriformes: Erethistidae).

Eight species are recognized: H. filamentosa, H. hara, H. horai, H. jerdoni and four new species from Thailand and Myanmar.

There is only one species of Hara in western Thailand (including Mae Sot, the type locality of H. maesotensis). Aquarium fish collectors have been collecting hard in this region for years, and have not been able to find a second species. Examining the types of Erethistes maesotensis, I conclude that they are juvenile H. filamentosa (which does not always possess the caudal filament).

#12 medaka

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 11:23 AM

Hi HH

QUOTE
I conclude that they are juvenile H. filamentosa (which does not always possess the caudal filament).


As
QUOTE
The paper explaining everything has been accepted for publication in Revue Suisse de Zoologie:


this paper is un-available, yet;

can you explain:- H maesotensis, Holotype MHNG 2096.63 (Kottelat 1983) is stated as being 21.7mm SL, (I would agree that this would have to be a 'Juvenile'), however;
Out of 10 specimens I have looked at in detail, the range is between 36mm & 44mm TL, These were adult specimens which I have had in excess of 5 yrs and have spawned. As these fish in my possesion meet all the requirements to E maesotensis/H maesotensis (Kottelat 1983),
I cannot get to grips with the fact that you have concluded that they are now juvenile H filamentosa! As H filamentosa was described as being Larger.

Adrian
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I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

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#13 Irene

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 01:17 PM

thanks Adrian, at least you have managed to breed some, which is good news and gives me hope that they can be tank bred. I have bred Bristlenose plecs and some corydoras (dwarf panda and julii), so have some idea of what care is involved and how hard the fry can be (well cory fry I find difficult but some have made it to adult).
Did your hara lay eggs in foliage, cave, on stones, in gravel nest , etc?
just so I can make sure I have the right furnishings and substrate etc.

#14 Bagrus dude

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 02:37 PM

The species in the photo does not come from western Thailand. It comes from southern Myanmar, and yes, it does not gow any larger than 30 mm SL (which is the largest specimen I have seen). There is only one species in western Thailand - H. filamentosa (I have examined 90 specimens from western Thailand/southern Myanmar identifiable as H. filamentosa).
I don't want to explain any further. Just wait for the paper to be published.

#15 medaka

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 12:06 PM

Hi Irene

QUOTE
Did your hara lay eggs in foliage, cave, on stones, in gravel nest , etc


Foliage..
My son asked "who was Elton John dad"?
I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

My Hearts belongs To Everton

visit AsianCatfish.com

Joins the worlds premier Catfish Society
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#16 Irene

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 05:11 PM

QUOTE(medaka @ Sep 2 2006, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Irene
Foliage..


thanks, I'll make sure they have a selection of plants. They are still eating well so have settled in well. I have a java fern which two of them tend to roost in.

#17 mikev

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 02:29 PM

Hi Medaka,

This is just to let you know that I have a small colony in my tank as of yesterday.

The tank is a 10g, planted, HOB+sponge+powerhead, sword plants. They went into hiding instantly, but right now I see some activity (with tank lights off).

The tankmates are four peaceful lizard loaches. I intended to give the Hara's their own tank but could not catch the lizards (plants on the way). No dither fish at all, I'll look into small rasboras later (something that does not need lots of swimming space).

At least one was playing with the current, dancing in front of the powerhead.

I did not try to sex and so far failed with making decent photos but hopefully I have both sexes represented.

Did not see them eating yet either, they were hiding when I put frozen schimp (I think they should eat it too?) will try frozen bloodworms later today.

I'm a little reluctant to give live food (possibility of an infection), do you think that a diet that alternates frozen schimp and bloodworms would be sufficient, or more is needed?

TY!

PS. Cute little guys.

#18 Irene

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 07:28 AM

hi mikev, glad you got some, how big are they?
I think I have the larger species, but they are very similar. apart from having a sniff they did not eat a prawn (defrosted) that I put in tied down. They have eaten frozen blood worm readily and have also nibbled a range of dried foods - flakes, sera discus granuals and algae wafer. I also gave them cooked peas with skin removed and they likes that. good luck with yours, look forward to some pics when you manage it.

#19 medaka

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE
I'm a little reluctant to give live food (possibility of an infection), do you think that a diet that alternates frozen schimp and bloodworms would be sufficient, or more is needed?


I do feed mine on live foods such as bloodworms and daphnia, however if you are worried over possible infections being introduced with such live foods, try feeding White worms and grindal worms as an alternative,
but not as a staple diet though, I even feed mine newly hatched brine shrimps, when I have excess which they take readily. I have found that all the Erethistidae that I have had over the years, have no problem accepting Frozen foods
My son asked "who was Elton John dad"?
I replied "He played keyboards son, for Marc Bolan"!

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#20 mikev

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Posted 11 September 2006 - 09:48 PM

Hi, Irene,

QUOTE(Irene @ Sep 11 2006, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
hi mikev, glad you got some, how big are they?
I think I have the larger species, but they are very similar. apart from having a sniff they did not eat a prawn (defrosted) that I put in tied down. They have eaten frozen blood worm readily and have also nibbled a range of dried foods - flakes, sera discus granuals and algae wafer. I also gave them cooked peas with skin removed and they likes that. good luck with yours, look forward to some pics when you manage it.


There are six, all about 1". No idea about sexes at this time and I cannot distinguish them. Also, I see very little of them: the tank has large swords and they spend most of the time inside them, so I can only see a fin or a tail sticking out.

So far they ignore most of the food I offered, including various wafers/pellets and even frozen brine shrimp (I did not try the baby kind yet). The sole exception is frozen bloodworms, these they do recognize, and all show up when I drop the bloodworms in.

Tankmates, incidentally, are Vanmanenia's like this one:



Hara's totally ignore the lizards; the lizards were watching Hara's closely for a couple of days, now relaxed. They do watch Hara eating, and if a Hara is slow with a bloodworm, a Lizard will take over.


Thank you and Medaka for the food suggestions! I'll try them all, a bloodworms-only diet is probably no good long-term.

Medaka, one reason I'm worried about live food is the lizards. I'm not sure about how "stable" Hara is and the fact that you kept them for so long is very encouraging. But I do know that these lizards succumb to diseases very easily (the most difficult hillstream so far). I probably will separate them once I see that they are doing well, but for now this is the most comfortable tank that was available.




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